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First of all what does "but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)" actually mean?
com magic all-spells c cold-ice-strike This was apparently nerfed from a 60 foot cone to a 30 foot line but that doesn t really address the problem, dealing 15d6 cold damage in an area at range with a swift action with a 6th level slot is a bit imbalanced if not outright broken. Therefore it shouldn t matter that this spell is overpowered because paladins should destroy evil opponents, which are the major foe in most campaigns, because there s no harm in making an already too strong class more powerful in most situations.
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These spells are broken
Paizo has done a good job playtesting stuff mostly so far but there are some balance offenders lurking out there, I'm making this thread to get a discussion going and alert people that these spells are not balanced and can cause problems
if you know of other examples like these post em up
1. Euphoric Tranquility - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/euphoric-tranquility
So, no save and they can't attack or cast spells for at least 16 rounds, AND they are helpful, so diplomacy is outdated. This one is pretty high level but it's straight up broken, touch required or not. there are a lot opponents at high level which are not hard to touch.
2. Litany of righteousness - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/litany-of-righteousness
Hey paladins weren't powerful enough smiting evil already, amirite? Swift action no save. didn't the designers learn from 3.5 leap attack etc? Giving stackable damage multipliers is a bad idea. You can make a 20th level paladin archer with this spell deal well over 1000 damage with a single full attack.
Cold Ice Strike - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/cold-ice-strike
This was apparently nerfed from a 60 foot cone to a 30 foot line but that doesn't really address the problem, dealing 15d6 cold damage in an area at range with a swift action with a 6th level slot is a bit imbalanced if not outright broken. Also, this doesn't fit the general cleric list at all. Compare it to a quickened lightning bolt, that requires another feat and takes a 7th level slot.
3. Litany of Vengeance - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/litany-of-vengeance
So, +5 damage for everyone that hits, swift action, again no save. That's bad enough, but the duration is "instantaneous", by RAW then, the target takes +5 damage. forever? So as a DM, I hit a pc with this, they take +5 damage on every attack that hits them for the duration of the campaign?
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As you said Euphoric tranquility requires a melee touch attack so its not that terrible, it actually reminds me of 3,5 Irresistable Dance. All in all a very powerful spell, borderline broken.
Regarding Cold ice strike, IMO damage dealing spells like fireball and cone of cold aren't worth it. Cold ice strike is a good spell but nothing more. Dealing 15d6 damage with a 6th level slot as a swift action at level 15 (how much damage does a fighter deal at that level?) is certainly nice but not broken.
I agree with your assessment on all but one of the spells. Euphoric Tranquillity should be fine - It is an 8th level spell (6th for bards) which is entirely defeated by a first level spell - Protection from Evil/Good/Chaos/Law.
Euphoric Tranquility: Does seem to be one that slipped through the cracks. Seems to me to have been intended as an ultimate form of interrogation magic, built in with some protection for the caster/party should things turn ugly. If you look at it as a spell cast on a hostile target midcombat- yep it's stupid.
Any reason Litany of Righteousness is exempt from the normal restriction on stacking multipliers? I don't see why it would be.. hence smite with the spell is x3. x4 total multiplier vs dragons/devils/etc. Sure it's a ton of damage, but there's doubtlessly other ways to deal similar damage.
Litany of Vengeance: the extra damage and type isn't really amazing. Good, sure, but not broken. Especially considering it's a 4th level paladin spell. The duration is definately mis-worded, and probably in need of a faq/erratum. Not exactly the same thing as an insanely overpowered spell :D
Euphoric tranquility
I disagree here, this is an 8th level spell, were in the big leagues now. It requires a touch attack and despite what many people say in hypothetical, my experience is that touch range spells usually end badly, the problem isn't landing the touch, its dealing with the subsequent backhand. There are some trick to get around this, but its still part of the spell. It allows SR, any creature at that level that doesn't have SR has a lot more to be worried about than this spell. They get a save to suppress the spell for one round if attacked, that's long enough for most enemies to escape.
Litany of righteousness
Duration of one round, its good, but really isn't that big of a deal and giving up a swift action as a paladin is a big deal. With smite already being pretty darn good, I can see how some people might not like this spell, but I don't see a problem.
Cold ice strike
Line based evocations have proven underwhemling in my games, plus a 6th level spell slot. You have energy resistance/immunity to deal with, reflex for half not to mention how many enemies are going to have evasion and improved, and SR. Swift action is about its only saving grace and not anything game breaking.
Litany of vengeance
This one probably needed to be play-tested a bit more and worded more carefully. There should be a requisite alignment indicator in the spell (like with the litany of righteousness), I am not really sure what the duration of instantaneous entails, and I am not sure why it is allowing all attacks against the target a bonus. Once again it allows SR and gives up a swift action, but I agree that this one needs some work.
I agree with your assessment on all but one of the spells. Euphoric Tranquillity should be fine - It is an 8th level spell (6th for bards) which is entirely defeated by a first level spell - Protection from Evil/Good/Chaos/Law.
The protection from X anti-control effect has no effect against a neutral spellcaster.
PRD wrote:Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person. This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires. While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target. This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.
I had a post written up along the lines of Pipdreamsam, but the board ate it. I mirror his/her sentiments. The only one which might be problematic is Litany of Vengance, but it isn't permanent. Any mispelling magic should be able to get rid of it and if you're high enough level to get stuck with it, you can take care of it just as easily as Mummy Rot.
I think these spells are fine and add a bit of extra coolness to the half-casting classes. Spellcasting is almost worthless for these classes compared to the level you get them, plus the number of daily slots are so few it will hardly make a difference. Also, the liturgies are conditional. If it is evil, a paladin should be able to tear it a new one.
My personal pet peeve about broken spells.
School illusion (shadow); Level sorcerer/wizard 7, summoner 5
CASTING
Casting Time 12 hours
Components V, S, M (ice sculpture of the target plus powdered rubies worth 500 gp per HD of the simulacrum)
EFFECT
Range 0 ft.
Effect one duplicate creature
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level. You must make a Disguise check when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is. A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Perception check (opposed by the caster's Disguise check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check.
At all times, the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner. A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities. If reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed, it reverts to snow and melts instantly into nothingness. A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum.
First of all what does "but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)" actually mean?
Someone one had a thread on these boards about a wizard with a Tarrasque mount. What limitations does this spell have exactly? In past editions you at least had to have a body part of what you were making a simulacrum of.
Can you make a simulacrum of the big bad evil guy and ask it questions? Make a simulacrum of something that you are not sure that exists? (Like an Ogre Oracle of Life)
Someone else had a thread in the past few days where his alchemist made simulacrums of himself to help with crafting.
As written you could make a simulacrum army of yourself if you have enough money. Or whatever you wanted really.
pipedreamsam wrote:Litany of vengeance
This one probably needed to be play-tested a bit more and worded more carefully. There should be a requisite alignment indicator in the spell (like with the litany of righteousness), I am not really sure what the duration of instantaneous entails, and I am not sure why it is allowing all attacks against the target a bonus. Once again it allows SR and gives up a swift action, but I agree that this one needs some work.
This is really not a problem. It's just a wording issue in the detailed text of the spell. But if you look up the spell in the index - the summary text clearly states that " Allies attacking the target of the spell gain a +5 bonus on damage rolls for 1 round."
+5 to damage rolls for 1 round? At that caster level? Have at it, I say.
Reis wrote:Paizo has done a good job playtesting stuff mostly so far but there are some balance offenders lurking out there, I'm making this thread to get a discussion going and alert people that these spells are not balanced and can cause problems
if you know of other examples like these post em up
1. Euphoric Tranquility - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/euphoric-tranquility
So, no save and they can't attack or cast spells for at least 16 rounds, AND they are helpful, so diplomacy is outdated. This one is pretty high level but it's straight up broken, touch required or not. there are a lot opponents at high level which are not hard to touch.
Um. Its an 8th level spell. Eight. At that same level, there is a touch spell that can make you dance endlessly or trap someones soul. if you are talking about balance in high level spells, you have a strange idea of what balance means.
Quote:2. Litany of righteousness - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/litany-of-righteousness
Hey paladins weren't powerful enough smiting evil already, amirite? Swift action no save. didn't the designers learn from 3.5 leap attack etc? Giving stackable damage multipliers is a bad idea. You can make a 20th level paladin archer with this spell deal well over 1000 damage with a single full attack.
Paladins are good at fighting evil. giant surprise there. And really who cares how much damage a paladin can do at 20th level, the wizard already defeated the thing before the paladin was within visual range, so why does it matter?
Quote:Cold Ice Strike - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/cold-ice-strike
This was apparently nerfed from a 60 foot cone to a 30 foot line but that doesn't really address the problem, dealing 15d6 cold damage in an area at range with a swift action with a 6th level slot is a bit imbalanced if not outright broken. Also, this doesn't fit the general cleric list at all. Compare it to a quickened lightning bolt, that requires another feat and takes a 7th level slot.
Except that evocation and damage are already obsolete to a primary caster at that level, so giving it a boost isnt the worst thing in the world. This one you could search for there was a fair amount of discussion on it, but to me, honestly, I dont care, because damage is the least effective way for a caster who can cast 6th level spells to defeat things. So having a spell like that that is better, isnt an issue.
Quote:3. Litany of Vengeance - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/litany-of-vengeance
So, +5 damage for everyone that hits, swift action, again no save. That's bad enough, but the duration is "instantaneous", by RAW then, the target takes +5 damage. forever? So as a DM, I hit a pc with this, they take +5 damage on every attack that hits them for the duration of the campaign?
Probably should have a duration, but in theory the party member could just have another litany spell cast on them (say litaney of defense) to end it, so it doesnt HAVE to be forever.
As for its effect, it comes into play at 13th level. It is essentially a party buff. Giving the party +5 damage to one target as a swift action at 13th level, can't a bard do better?[hint: they can]
well I'll let this post die, because I think this board basically suffers from a problem of"one-upsmanship" so I'm not going to try to do that because I think I've made my points. I think there is some healthy discussion going on here but also a lot of equivocating and relativism which detracts from the fact that in a real play situation these spells are in a real sense perhaps unbalanced.
For my campaign, we'll probably make a "gentleman's agreement" not to use them. Good gaming!
Reis wrote:well I'll let this post die, because I think this board basically suffers from a problem of"one-upsmanship" so I'm not going to try to do that because I think I've made my points. I think there is some healthy discussion going on here but also a lot of equivocating and relativism which detracts from the fact that in a real play situation these spells are in a real sense perhaps unbalanced.
For my campaign, we'll probably make a "gentleman's agreement" not to use them. Good gaming!
Actually your points were shown to be false and your concerns were unfounded. If that's "one-upsmanship", why post in the first place?
Euphoric Tranquility: High level mind-affecting spells suck (so many immunities. ), and it's melee touch. Doesn't bother me. I'd take it off the Cleric/Oracle list and add it to the Witch list, but other than that, it's fine.
Litany of Righteousness: It's completely fine. My personaly opinion is it should be reduced effect against evil creatures and much stronger effect (dazzled, seriously?) against evil subtype enemies. *shrug* Paladins should be amazing at crushing evil.
Cold Ice Strike: Nothing wrong with it, IMO. Since Qingong Monk gets it, back before the eratta I was hoping the nerf would be that the missing components would include an expensive M component and it'd remain a cone. oh well. I would remove it from Cleric/Oracle, though, they have no business getting such a pure blast spell, and certainly not at the same level as sorc/wiz.
Litany of Vengeance: Duration i definitely borked, instantaneous is dumb. The actual mechanical benefit is actually pretty unimpressive for a high level spell effect. So, just needs duration fixed. Round/level, heck even hour/level, 24 hours, or permanent would be fine, since you can only have one litany on you at a time (and I assume break enchantment or something like that can remove them?). Just not instantaneous.
Actually some commenters agreed that the spells have issues.
as for why I posted, I would say that's evident. The point of the boards is to have a discussion, but I believe it says the number 1 rule is "don't be a jerk"! I'm attempting to discuss things in a polite manner here, so I'd appreciate it if other posters didn't attempt to dismiss my claims outright but rather tried to discuss them in a relevant manner.
anyway, I guess my continuing argument is that the posters disagreeing with my post have basically equivocated in the following manner:
1) Paladins are good at fighting evil, and are (arguably) already overpowered. Therefore, another 1-2 spells which make them even stronger against evil shouldn't matter because, just like 3.5, casters are (again, arguably) already much stronger at high levels. Therefore it shouldn't matter that this spell is overpowered because paladins should destroy evil opponents, which are the major foe in most campaigns, because there's no harm in making an already too strong class more powerful in most situations.
2) Direct damage as a high level primary caster is sub-optimal, therefore there's no problem with making a spell which is clearly stronger than most similar spells of its level because that type of spell isn't worth taking anyway.
3) An 8th level spell which is clearly much better than other spells available (even 9th level spells) of its level isn't a problem, even though a touch attack is quite easy to land on a variety of opponents at that level and does not allow a save
4) There's no problem with increasing the variety of swift action and "no save" spells available to "partial casters" because such classes are marginalized anyway.
5) A spell has a 1 round duration (a full attack at x2 damage!= encounter over) or has questionable duration which might be dispelled is not unbalanced even though it is still clearly better than other spells of its level.
I didn't mean "one upsmanship" as an attack against anyone. What I mean is that if you're going to reply, you should address the point directly rather than equivocating.
Reis wrote:1) Paladins are good at fighting evil, and are (arguably) already overpowered. Therefore, another 1-2 spells which make them even stronger against evil shouldn't matter because, just like 3.5, casters are (again, arguably) already much stronger at high levels. Therefore it shouldn't matter that this spell is overpowered because paladins should destroy evil opponents, which are the major foe in most campaigns, because there's no harm in making an already too strong class more powerful in most situations.
2) Direct damage as a high level primary caster is sub-optimal, therefore there's no problem with making a spell which is clearly stronger than most similar spells of its level because that type of spell isn't worth taking anyway.
3) An 8th level spell which is clearly much better than other spells available (even 9th level spells) of its level isn't a problem, even though a touch attack is quite easy to land on a variety of opponents at that level and does not allow a save
4) There's no problem with increasing the variety of swift action and "no save" spells available to "partial casters" because such classes are marginalized anyway.
5) A spell has a 1 round duration (a full attack at x2 damage!= encounter over) or has questionable duration which might be dispelled is not unbalanced even though it is still clearly better than other spells of its level.
1) Paladins aren't overpowered. But they are the best class at fighting evil, as it should be. You're right, they're already so good at fighting evil that this spell doesn't matter; they can steamroll a villain with Smite quite fine already. I'd actually use this spell on enemies I wasn't smiting (only get so many in a day) but needed a quick damage boost on. Wasting a smite and this on the same guy is hilariously pointless overkill. I might not even prepare it, since again, evil killing = COVERED, and prep a spell that lets me do something else entirely.
2) Well, Cold Ice Strike is worth taking. :) Only because its a swift action, the direct damage and 30 ft line aspects are pretty subpar. It is definitely better than any comparable blast spell. So are many buffs, debuffs, and battlefield control spells. *shrug* A quickened 3rd level spell would give you a 7th level slot for only 10d6 and lower save DC, but bigger area and a choice of several types of damage (Fireball and Lightning Bolt at least). CIS is 6th level and a specific damage type, you give up some versatility in choice for a 1 level reduction. Seems fine.
3) It's not clearly better. There are many great 8th and 9th level spells I'd take before this. Even staying in Enchantment (Compulsion), Dominate Monster is 9th level. There's a save, but it's ranged. Instead of making someone a non-combatant for 1 fight, it turn the target into your MIND SLAVE for the better part of a month. That effect is much, much greater than Tranquiliy's. It's also not language dependent, since you can give telepathic commands.
5) Don't know what the point is here. 1 round spells last for one round and work pretty much as intended, a brief buff. LoV has a stupid duration and needs to be changed, but as a high level spell that just gives a +5 damage on every attack against one creature, it's pretty tame otherwise. Haste is a low/mid level spell that gives everyone an extra attack at full BAB (against any foe, not just one specific target), +30 ft speed, and +1 attack and AC. Haste seems stronger, and is available ~10 levels earlier.
1. Euphoric Tranquility - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/euphoric-tranquility
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