puff the magic dragon

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It doesn't look very magical does it?
This is how you find out the "magic" in the matrix:

Touch Spells - A character must hold the correct coloured spell orb in one hand and then gently touch the target of the spell for it to have effect, and not be thrown in any way which is a Ranged spell. In my mind, the psion makes a better sorcerer than the sorcerer; the powers are versatile, the system allows for super-flexability, and psionic powers are both similar and different from wizard spells to make the wizard sorcerer divide more pronounced.

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D&D 3E/3.5 Comparing Standard 3.5 Variant Magic Systems

In preparing a revival of an old PBEM campaign, to use more or less standard Ed. 3.5, I am considering adopting one of Alternative Magic systems as I dislike standard Vancian magic, but wish to stay with alternatives supported in tools such as PCGen without any real labour on my part (if I am not mistaken with respect to PCGen).

Recharge Magic

• SRD - Recharge Magic
• Recharge Magic :: d20srd.org

• Spell Points :: d20srd.org
• SRD - Spell Points

Aries_Omega

Explorer

In my game we use the Spell Points variant. It works really well IMHO. The only thing we really added was "mana" potions. potions of healing that add back spell points. We kept them uncommon still. something like for every 6 potions found one might be a potion of mana recovery instead.

Also we added to the sorcerer abilities similar to the wilder in the whole wild surge and burnout. No one ever used it so it might be a moot point.

ramira

First Post

Comparing Recharge and Spell Points

In my game we use the Spell Points variant. It works really well IMHO. The only thing we really added was "mana" potions. potions of healing that add back spell points. We kept them uncommon still. something like for every 6 potions found one might be a potion of mana recovery instead.

Also we added to the sorcerer abilities similar to the wilder in the whole wild surge and burnout. No one ever used it so it might be a moot point.

I am particularly wondering about comparisons on use between recharge and spell points - which could be interesting to wider readers. For my own uses, given I only participate in PBeM formats, balance is less of an issue (in particular as I have usually felt that magical balance is best dealt by DM discretion if among adult participants).

dulsi

Explorer

I've never used a spell point system. I have looked at the spell point system in the SRD for running a game where the characters are inside an MMORPG. It just doesn't seem that well designed to me. Instead I went with a mostly standard spell system. Wizards were eliminated and all casters were switched to spontaneous like the sorcerer and bard. I did add mana potions. They restored a certain number of spell levels and had a maximum spell level they could restore. So the weakest could restore 1d6+1 spell levels with a maximum spell level of 3rd.

Jhaelen

First Post

If you dislike the Vancian magic system just forget about magic and use psionics exclusively.

I wouldn't recommend the spell point system variant, imho, it has some serious balance issues.

Eldritch_Lord

Adventurer

If you dislike the Vancian magic system just forget about magic and use psionics exclusively.

I wouldn't recommend the spell point system variant, imho, it has some serious balance issues.

Agreed. Vancian casting was designed for spell slots; psionics was designed for power points. Putting Vancian spells with the psionic resource-management system (which is all spell points does) is a recipe for disaster.

dulsi

Explorer

The problem is that psionics has a different feel to it than magic. Take astral construct and summon monster as an example. Astral construct feels like you are taking lego pieces and building a monster. For summon monster you're just kinda stuck we the options available. My brother feels that psionics is more oriented to helping the individual as opposed to the party. Magic has shield other to allow you to take the damage for someone else while the psionic share mind sends your damage to another person. Yeah they are almost the same and you could modify share pain but my point is that it doesn't have the same feel by default.

EroGaki

First Post

The problem is that psionics has a different feel to it than magic. Take astral construct and summon monster as an example. Astral construct feels like you are taking lego pieces and building a monster. For summon monster you're just kinda stuck we the options available. My brother feels that psionics is more oriented to helping the individual as opposed to the party. Magic has shield other to allow you to take the damage for someone else while the psionic share mind sends your damage to another person. Yeah they are almost the same and you could modify share pain but my point is that it doesn't have the same feel by default.

My DM has similar views about psionics. I've been trying to break him of these views. In my mind, the psion makes a better sorcerer than the sorcerer; the powers are versatile, the system allows for super-flexability, and psionic powers are both similar and different from wizard spells to make the wizard/sorcerer divide more pronounced.

Mainly, you just have to be a little opened minded about this like the descriptive text for psionic powers. Astral Constructs not your thing? I had a psion call them assault golems that he forged from pure magic; Hostile Empathic Transfer is Vampiric Touch in all was except description. Rather than thinking of Psionics as something completely alien from magic, just declare it as a different method of using magic; that's how I've always viewed it.

dulsi

Explorer

Mainly, you just have to be a little opened minded about this like the descriptive text for psionic powers. Astral Constructs not your thing? I had a psion call them assault golems that he forged from pure magic; Hostile Empathic Transfer is Vampiric Touch in all was except description. Rather than thinking of Psionics as something completely alien from magic, just declare it as a different method of using magic; that's how I've always viewed it.

I don't have a problem refluffing the astral constructs to golems or something. The problem I have is that I can no longer be a summoner. The astral constructs are the closest things to summon monster but it has a very different feel.

Additionally even if you replace wizard/sorcerer with psion, what do you do with the cleric? There is no psionic class with similar sorts of powers.

EroGaki

First Post

I don't have a problem refluffing the astral constructs to golems or something. The problem I have is that I can no longer be a summoner. The astral constructs are the closest things to summon monster but it has a very different feel.

Additionally even if you replace wizard/sorcerer with psion, what do you do with the cleric? There is no psionic class with similar sorts of powers.

There's no reason to replace the cleric with a psionic version; the cleric's magic is distinguishable from wizard/sorcerer magic. Wizards and sorcerers, on the other hand, are practically the same; they have access to the same spells, they cast them in the same way, and the have the same hindrances (spell fail due to armor, etc). There is nothing that really makes one different from the other, other than the fire and forget nature of wizard spells versus the sorcerer method.

As for summoning, I can understand that psionics do cover everything. It would be a simple matter to convert summon/calling spells to psionic versions of themselves.

dulsi

Explorer

There's no reason to replace the cleric with a psionic version; the cleric's magic is distinguishable from wizard/sorcerer magic.

But that isn't what the original poster is looking for. He dislikes Vancian magic and wants to replace. I assume that means cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard and all other casters. While using a psion instead of a sorcerer makes it more unique than the wizard, it does nothing to solve the poster's problem with the rest of the casters.

EroGaki

First Post

But that isn't what the original poster is looking for. He dislikes Vancian magic and wants to replace. I assume that means cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard and all other casters. While using a psion instead of a sorcerer makes it more unique than the wizard, it does nothing to solve the poster's problem with the rest of the casters.

ramira

First Post

If you dislike the Vancian magic system just forget about magic and use psionics exclusively.

I wouldn't recommend the spell point system variant, imho, it has some serious balance issues.

I appreciate the input, but as noted in the OP, I am not concerned about balance issues as such. Not to say I am not concerned about balance period, but this particular game and format make it not a major concern relative to casting power.

Further, the adaptation of the Psionics to pull in the spells of the Magic Users is rather a bit of labour. If I may restate, I would like to discuss the Alternative Magic systems as such. And without extensive adaptation labour in particular, as I have neither the time nor inclination for such tinkering.

ramira

First Post

Rather than thinking of Psionics as something completely alien from magic, just declare it as a different method of using magic; that's how I've always viewed it.

Perhaps, but as noted, I am not interested in massive tinkering and wish insight on rather more plain vanilla adaptations (in particular things that can easily without extra labour adopted into tools such as PCGen).

I am hoping in the vast number of mechanics people here that someone has played both of the two Unearthed Arcana options and can give comparative insight. To quote myself "I am interested in comments on effective, relatively easy to implement system, rather than ideal customisation."

Ahnehnois

First Post

I run a system using spell points. I standardized things so spell points are based on a simple formula, spells known are a flat number rather than a big chart (like the psion) and memorized spells are handled similarly, clerics cast spontaneously (also UA) and spell DCs are all 10 + 1/2 caster level + ability mod. This allows you to create a caster without referencing charts and to pplay one with much less time spent in preparation. You get a lot more flexibility and customization without an increase in raw power.

I've seen no balance problems and I think it fits the criteria of being easy to implement and effective but not perfect. I have not, however, used the recharge system to compare it to.

Voadam

Legend

I too dislike the vancian system. I like the recharge system a lot. Making the resource allocation decision more about round to round management of spells and choosing among a small number rather than focused on daily expenditure is a lot more to my style.

The biggest drawback for me is the extra die roll of general recharge time and actually tracking each spell level's recharge. For my games I eliminated the die roll and created static recharge times. At the table having dice next to your list of prepared/known spells by level allowed easy visual tracking (changing numbers each round for rounds left of recharge) during combats which speeded up play a bunch for my high level eldritch knight.

Consequences of recharge:
1) High level magics will be used every fight.
2) Less potential novaing though as you only have one shot per spell level before you have to wait to recharge. Normal casters can unload nothing but high level spells in a sustained 1/day nova while rechargers quickly downgrade the magical firepower round to round. Sorcerers in particular lose out on throwing three of their highest level spells in a row
3) Quickly have no magic in a fight. Unless you adopt a pathfinder style house rule to make cantrips at will low level casters will have two rounds of magic in combat before they have to pull out crossbows. wands and scrolls get around this as does the unlimited cantrips house rule.
4) Sorcerers with non general recharge spells get a little short changed, we house ruled that those recharges were reduced proportionally as well.
5) Preparation casters have a little advantage in that their normal slots (including bonus slots) never need to double up on useful spells, they can safely generalize their prepared list. Compare slots to spells known charts and compound from generally big pools of preparation choices.

But that isn't what the original poster is looking for. He dislikes Vancian magic and wants to replace. I assume that means cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard and all other casters. While using a psion instead of a sorcerer makes it more unique than the wizard, it does nothing to solve the poster's problem with the rest of the casters.

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puff the magic dragon