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Given what Andrew said earlier, do we need to double your figures to get an accurate idea of costs ?
Like all printers (solvent and dye sub) the Epson will use ink in cleans. If you only print one shirt per week then yes the cost per shirt is going to be more due to the ink that has been used in the cleaning cycles. If you are using the machine daily then it will do less cleaning and the cost calculator will be more accurate.
If you only plan to print the occasional t-shirt then i would question if DTG is right process for your business.

Okay you probably want to save that for conversations with potentials at the show, I ll pop along on the Monday, your bound to spot me, I m the handsome one. Having said that, they tend to view the Epsons as a consumable asset and tend to dispose of them at the end of the warrenty leasing package, in the same way as they would only keep a van for a few years before replacing it.

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With the print shows coing up again, I am wondering if any forum members can share positive or negative experiences of DTG.

We can all accept that it is important to have volume throughput to keep them from clogging up.
Some use branded & hence more expensive inks, - although they do offer a more 'turn-key' solution.

Might it be better to get 2 smaller machines or 1 larger one, in case of down time?

I understand that there are special heat presses for DTG that allow water vapour / moisture to escape while curing?

any thoughts? Thanks again.
Phil

I�ve looked at Epsom ones and will be looking at the show but it�s a bit chicken and egg situation but I did buy a sefa auto open press which came with a dtg platen but haven�t used it yet ! It does however open automatically which looked a bit swish

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Following with interest because I am in the same process as you.

A lot of the large 'print on demand' (POD) shops appear to be opting for multiple ( ie dozens) of the Epson F2100 rather than one or two large Kornet printers. Having said that, they tend to view the Epsons as a 'consumable asset' and tend to dispose of them at the end of the warrenty/leasing package, in the same way as they would only keep a van for a few years before replacing it. I get the impresion that parts are very costly after the warrenty expires.

I think that the best way to view DTG printers in general is that you are not buying a 'family heirloom'. It is not like buying a screen printing press or Pressmech that is a one off purchase that will last for decades - DTG machines have a very finite life. Purchase costs need to be recouped and profits made over a short period. If you get a couple of extra years then that is a bonus, but in general costs of ownership need to be viewed as an ongoing expense.

I'm looking at DTG too..these epson F2100 look great to get into the market but are there any similar options available, anyone with experience of this level of machine please?

I would say the cons are going to stack up quicker than pros. Main one's being set-up cost then running cost then down time. All of these will be very significant. Never really heard anyone say their Epson DTG's are great machines but everyone I know with other brands of DTG also complain. Epson is probably one of the lesser advanced brands hence cheaper. As you will expect down time you will need 2 smaller machines running side by side rather than a larger if you will be having critical deadline runs.

One thing for sure, when you speak to each manufacturer at the show, whatever running cost they give you such as ink costs per print etc. you can double it as a minimum starting point. Most will strictly dictate what inks you have to use and they are expensive. Expect to pour a large amount away every week from the maintenance cycles and that is even if you have hardly been using it. Each month you will be talking hundreds down the drain. Plenty of other cons such as warranties are largely pointless as so much of the machine is classed as consumables and replacements are costly.

On the flip side, if you can build up to plenty of orders going through every day for several hours I am sure you can make plenty of money. The good machines can get a really good print laid down and in a decent time. They will look slightly different after the first wash as they are a bit stiff with the excess pre-treat and the heat press mark, plus a little bit of surface ink drops out but the final result is usually very good.

What ever they tell you at the show, I would then do very thorough research and try to speak to people who actually use the machines. They are sales people and will bullshit like the best of them. The claims they make are laughable in hindsight.

I would say the cons are going to stack up quicker than pros. Main one's being set-up cost then running cost then down time. All of these will be very significant. Never really heard anyone say their Epson DTG's are great machines but everyone I know with other brands of DTG also complain. Epson is probably one of the lesser advanced brands hence cheaper. As you will expect down time you will need 2 smaller machines running side by side rather than a larger if you will be having critical deadline runs.

One thing for sure, when you speak to each manufacturer at the show, whatever running cost they give you such as ink costs per print etc. you can double it as a minimum starting point. Most will strictly dictate what inks you have to use and they are expensive. Expect to pour a large amount away every week from the maintenance cycles and that is even if you have hardly been using it. Each month you will be talking hundreds down the drain. Plenty of other cons such as warranties are largely pointless as so much of the machine is classed as consumables and replacements are costly.

On the flip side, if you can build up to plenty of orders going through every day for several hours I am sure you can make plenty of money. The good machines can get a really good print laid down and in a decent time. They will look slightly different after the first wash as they are a bit stiff with the excess pre-treat and the heat press mark, plus a little bit of surface ink drops out but the final result is usually very good.

What ever they tell you at the show, I would then do very thorough research and try to speak to people who actually use the machines. They are sales people and will bullshit like the best of them. The claims they make are laughable in hindsight.
thanks Andrew, do you have any machines then? If so what models etc?
It would be good to get some kind of list together of what people have and their experiences so that we can help make decisions.
many thanks

I would like to try and help with any questions you might have regarding the Epson F2100.

Attached are a few prints that I produced this morning for our display at P&P.

We will have two Epson F2100's on our stand so feel free to pop over and have a chat or if you have any questions i'm happy to answer on here that way people can call out any suspected BS :biggrin:

I would like to try and help with any questions you might have regarding the Epson F2100.

Attached are a few prints that I produced this morning for our display at P&P.

We will have two Epson F2100's on our stand so feel free to pop over and have a chat or if you have any questions i'm happy to answer on here that way people can call out any suspected BS :biggrin:

Hi Ricky, thanks for your input and offer of advice
which pretreatment machines do you use?
does the pretreatment always have to be that large surface area?
Cost of above and ongoing costs?
Maintenance of Epson, I know it has it's own cleaning cartridge but what are the 'hidden' if any costs and time involvement, maintenance routines etc?
Heatpress, auto and does it require a DTG platen, costs involved?
I'll add more as I think of them :)

I guess what every sceptical garment decorator wants to know is the cons, as much if not more so then hearing about the pro's. We can all sell anything on pro's but it's how you manage to still sell something even after explaining the cons. Resellers want to sell a machine for sure but they also want the cusotmer to prosper so they buy another or go for bigger and better model from them. Aside from any salespersons targets (which can skew a sales pitch, especially if its comission based) it's in the resellers interest to look after you, give you the truths and explain how to best optimise or capitalise from using the machine but equally explain that they can be a use it or loose it situation if you only print minimal quantites a day, week, month, year and the cleaning cycles eat what should be going on products. Sometimes the cons aren't clear until the new model comes out either, with additional/better features you didn't realie you needed but thats the way of the world with most things these days. Those T shirts look epic Ricky, so how about telling us what the cons are, is it amount of ink used or the time to print, logevity of such intense colours or is it a decorators dream with no downsides only positives and this time next year we'll all be millionaires! Okay you probably want to save that for conversations with potentials at the show, I'll pop along on the Monday, your bound to spot me, I'm the handsome one :)

For the prints pictured I used the following equipment:

Schulze pre treatmaker VI
Sefa rotex swing press (curing of the pre treat)
Epson F2100 to print
Sefa T dry Drying cabinet (to cure the ink)
https://www.xpres.co.uk/p-9977-sefa-t-dry-drying-cabinet-to-suit-epson-f2100-dtg.aspx

does the pretreatment always have to be that large surface area?
No, you can just pre treat the area you are printing

Cost of above and ongoing costs?
The prints pictured range from �1.30 to �1.58 in ink costs
Pre treat works out around 7p per spray I sprayed the shirts twice.
Ongoing the machine requires a Head cleaning set �63.48, this should last around 500-600 prints depending on how many cleans the machine has done

Maintenance of Epson, I know it has it's own cleaning cartridge but what are the 'hidden' if any costs and time involvement, maintenance routines etc?
The cleaning cartridge should last around 90 days, again depending on how many cleans are done
The Epson takes care of its own maintenance, we have two units in our showroom that are only used for demos and can sit for a week with use. We have not had any issues.
They do like being used and the more you use them the less they will auto clean.
Unlike the older Epson F2000 the Epson F2100 no longer dumps large volumes of ink. This is due to the closed loop white ink circulation system on thew new F2100.

Heatpress, auto and does it require a DTG platen, costs involved?
I used a standard heat press platen on the Sefa, you can purchase a DTG platen that will help the steam that is generated in the drying process escape.

DTG printing is not just about the printer, good results on any DTG printer requires getting a number of processes correct:

Choice of T-shirt
Pre-treatment
Curing pre-treatment solution

If one of the above processes is not correct the quality will be affected. Investing in the other processes is just as important as the printer itself.

Choice of T-shirt
The T-shirt that you are printing on makes a massive difference. Order samples from a number of different suppliers, don't just buy on price.

Pre-treatment
Its is key to have an even coating of pretreat solution when printing with white ink this is the base that the ink is going to stick to, get this wrong and the printer has not got a chance.
Mix enough solution for a weeks work, if the solution sits with out being used it will start to congeal. This will then start to block nozzles in your pre treatment machine giving an uneven spray.

Curing pre-treatment solution
Again a very important stage, Make sure you apply heavy pressure so you flatten the fibres on the shirt this give the printer a nice flat area to print on.
When curing pre-treat solution you are putting the element on your heat press under a lot of stress, cheaper presses struggle to maintain heat so you will have to cure for longer.
Make sure the T-shirt is completely dry before printing.

I hope this helps.

P&P is a good place to see the different options available but i would recommend visiting a supplier for a 1to1 demo so you can test your designs and the T-shirts that you will be printing on. If you would like to arrange a visit to our showroom please let me know.

Hi Ricky, thanks for your input and offer of advice
which pretreatment machines do you use?
does the pretreatment always have to be that large surface area?
Cost of above and ongoing costs?
Maintenance of Epson, I know it has it's own cleaning cartridge but what are the 'hidden' if any costs and time involvement, maintenance routines etc?
Heatpress, auto and does it require a DTG platen, costs involved?
I'll add more as I think of them :)

I completely agree with you.

DTG is not for everyone and its not a magic box that produces perfect prints at the click of a button, it takes work.

As for cons, at this end of the market print cost and print speed are the biggest.

Ink Cost
Epson ink is �147.00 per 600ml cartridge, a solid white A4 print will cost about �2.00 in ink a full platen around �4.50 in ink. But you don't need to print the job to get a price, just RIP the job in Garment Creator (RIP provided by Epson) and it will tell you the estimated ink usage so you can quote the job accordingly.

Print Speed
A good operator should get 15-18 dark shirts an hour, double that for white t-shirts.
The Brother GTX prints at twice the speed but at twice the cost. For the same money you can have two F2100's and when one goes down ( they are printers they will go down) you are still in production.
If you PM me your address I will post out a print that you can wash test so you can see how the wash affects the print firsthand.

I guess what every sceptical garment decorator wants to know is the cons, as much if not more so then hearing about the pro's. We can all sell anything on pro's but it's how you manage to still sell something even after explaining the cons. Resellers want to sell a machine for sure but they also want the cusotmer to prosper so they buy another or go for bigger and better model from them. Aside from any salespersons targets (which can skew a sales pitch, especially if its comission based) it's in the resellers interest to look after you, give you the truths and explain how to best optimise or capitalise from using the machine but equally explain that they can be a use it or loose it situation if you only print minimal quantites a day, week, month, year and the cleaning cycles eat what should be going on products. Sometimes the cons aren't clear until the new model comes out either, with additional/better features you didn't realie you needed but thats the way of the world with most things these days. Those T shirts look epic Ricky, so how about telling us what the cons are, is it amount of ink used or the time to print, logevity of such intense colours or is it a decorators dream with no downsides only positives and this time next year we'll all be millionaires! Okay you probably want to save that for conversations with potentials at the show, I'll pop along on the Monday, your bound to spot me, I'm the handsome one :)

I completely agree with you.

DTG is not for everyone and its not a magic box that produces perfect prints at the click of a button, it takes work.

As for cons, at this end of the market print cost and print speed are the biggest.

Ink Cost
Epson ink is �147.00 per 600ml cartridge, a solid white A4 print will cost about �2.00 in ink a full platen around �4.50 in ink. But you don't need to print the job to get a price, just RIP the job in Garment Creator (RIP provided by Epson) and it will tell you the estimated ink usage so you can quote the job accordingly.

Print Speed
A good operator should get 15-18 dark shirts an hour, double that for white t-shirts.
The Brother GTX prints at twice the speed but at twice the cost. For the same money you can have two F2100's and when one goes down ( they are printers they will go down) you are still in production.
If you PM me your address I will post out a print that you can wash test so you can see how the wash affects the print firsthand.

thanks Ricky, what is the next level up? what machines should we be looking at please?

The jump up in price to industrial DTG is considerable , 50-60k for the entry level Kornit (around 30 dark shirts an hour) but if you want low running costs (50-60p per print) and 60-70 shirts per hour from one machine its closer to the 250-300k mark.

thanks Ricky, what is the next level up? what machines should we be looking at please?

There is a guy over on the T-shirt forum in America who has one of each - F2000, F2100, and the Brother GTX. He gets on well with all of them, with some very good results that wash well. He posted some VERY impressive pics recently ( on the other forum) - if I can find the post then I will post a link.

Ricky@Xpres. thanks for the details.

Given what Andrew said earlier, do we need to double your figures to get an accurate idea of costs ?

What is the advantage of using the air drying cabinet over a heat press?
It is rated at 3600w which is a lot of power, and will make any print shop VERY hot.

Is temperature and humidity an issue with the Epson? - if we have 3600w of air drying cabinet, I guess that the print shop humidity will be very low . ?

Thanks in advance.
Phil

There is a guy over on the T-shirt forum in America who has one of each - F2000, F2100, and the Brother GTX. He gets on well with all of them, with some very good results that wash well. He posted some VERY impressive pics recently ( on the other forum) - if I can find the post then I will post a link.
Here is the link- hope it is not against the rules.
https://www.t-shirtforums.com/epson-surecolor-dtg-printers/t881833.html

Garment creator has cost calculator built in, I have attached the calculation from the Skull print. This estimates the cost based on the setting that you have used to print the job, you can even add t-shirt and labour costs.

Given what Andrew said earlier, do we need to double your figures to get an accurate idea of costs ?
Like all printers (solvent and dye sub) the Epson will use ink in cleans. If you only print one shirt per week then yes the cost per shirt is going to be more due to the ink that has been used in the cleaning cycles. If you are using the machine daily then it will do less cleaning and the cost calculator will be more accurate.
If you only plan to print the occasional t-shirt then i would question if DTG is right process for your business.

What is the advantage of using the air drying cabinet over a heat press?
Many people use heat presses but I find you get more consistent results when using the cabinet dryer or tunnel dryer, as there is no contact with the printed image.

It is rated at 3600w which is a lot of power, and will make any print shop VERY hot.
Is temperature and humidity an issue with the Epson? - if we have 3600w of air drying cabinet, I guess that the print shop humidity will be very low . ?
With all DTG printer you have to regulate the humidity at around 40%-50%.
We have had an f2100 sat on a drying cabinet for the last six months with out any issues.

Ricky@Xpres. thanks for the details.

Given what Andrew said earlier, do we need to double your figures to get an accurate idea of costs ?

What is the advantage of using the air drying cabinet over a heat press?
It is rated at 3600w which is a lot of power, and will make any print shop VERY hot.

Is temperature and humidity an issue with the Epson? - if we have 3600w of air drying cabinet, I guess that the print shop humidity will be very low . ?

Thanks in advance.
Phil

Ricky, does that show just the cost of the white ink . looks like you can select colours in the drop down?

What is the advantage of using the air drying cabinet over a heat press?
Many people use heat presses but I find you get more consistent results when using the cabinet dryer or tunnel dryer, as there is no contact with the printed image.

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