The Role of Xurse in the Ecosystem

Xurse if thr oayhbroaje5 "Xurse if thr oayhbroaje5" appears to be a garbled or mistyped phrase that does not make immediate sense. It is possible that the phrase was not correctly typed or there was an error in transcription. Without further context or clarification, it is difficult to determine the intended meaning of the phrase. If the phrase is interpreted as "Curse of the pathway rogue," then it could be a reference to a curse or negative consequences associated with deviating from a designated path or route. This interpretation could be applicable in a literal or metaphorical sense, suggesting negative consequences or obstacles that arise as a result of not following a prescribed path or straying from the norm. However, since the phrase in question seems to be a typographical error or an incomplete phrase, it is challenging to provide a more specific interpretation or analysis.

Ingwë, The 'Curse of Morgoth' was directed at Hurin and his family. The Curse of the Noldor that I was refering to is contained in the Doom of Mandos. Mandos only foretold what that self-imposed curse of the oath-takers would do to themselves and to the Noldor as a people.

It seems to me that the only Valarian Curse involved the Valar saying Ok, if that is how you want it, that is how you can have it and what would happen after they came to Mandos. The Oath of Feanor is the Curse of the Noldor all the woes of that people came from the uttering of those fateful words by Feanor and his short-sighted sons.

However, since the phrase in question seems to be a typographical error or an incomplete phrase, it is challenging to provide a more specific interpretation or analysis. If the intended message or topic is clarified, it would be possible to address it in a more meaningful way..

Which was the most effective? The Doom of Mandos or the Curse of Morgoth?

'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they ever be for ever.

'Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.'
The Silmarillion: Of the Flight of the Noldor

Therefore Húrin was brought before Morgoth, for Morgoth knew that he had the friendship of the King of Gondolin; but Húrin defied him, and mocked him. Then Morgoth cursed Húrin and Morwen and their offspring, and set a doom upon them of darkness and sorrow; and taking Húrin from prison he set him in a chair of stone upon a high place of Thangorodrim. There he was bound by the power of Morgoth, and Morgoth standing beside him cursed him again; and he said ' Sit now there; and look out upon the lands where evil and despair shall come upon those whom you lovest. Thou hast dared to mock me, and to question the power of Melkor, Master of the fates of Arda. Therefore with my eyes thou shalt see, and with my ears shalt hear; and never shalt thou move from this place until all is fulfilled unto its bitter end.' The Silmarillion: Of the Fifth Battle

Which was the most effective? That is which was most fully complete in its intent, The Doom of Mandos or The Curse of Morgoth.

Celebthôl

Loremaster

LOL we did this, in a debate a while back i do believe .

The way i see it is that The Curse of Morgoth was, as there was no way if would be released, it was totally effective and didnt falter, whereas The Doom of Mandos had loops-holes such as they let Galadriel back when they said no one was allowed back. The bottom line is that the Valar are forgiving, Morgoth is not.

Ithrynluin

seeker of solace

Originally posted by Celebthôl
The Doom of Mandos had loops-holes such as they let Galadriel back when they said no one was allowed back. The bottom line is that the Valar are forgiving, Morgoth is not.

But the exiles could not get back when they found themselves in dire straits - facing Morgoth in all his glory upon Middle Earth. Nor was Galadriel allowed back until all 'supernatural' forms of evil were vanquished, to which she contributed. They were shut out and left to themselves.

The same could be said of Morgoth's curse. Melian did try to avert the curse and counter Morgoth's plans, but unfortunately it failed. Who is to blame for that is another matter. Was Morgoth's power out of the reach of Melian to counter?

Celebthôl

Loremaster

None the less, Galadriel was let back in when the Valar stated none would be allowed back and they would wither and fade.

Morgoth was a Valar, Melian was not. There was no way she could contend him to break his curse.

Grond

Morgoth's Mace

It has always seemed to me that the Curse of Mandos was directed at the House of Feanor. All who followed came under its jurisdiction but only the House of Feanor was specifically cited. I see that as the "out" that allowed Galadriel (and other Noldor who departed after Melkor's final defeat) to go back to Eldamar.

Just my thoughts!

Arvedui

Stargazer

First of all, Galadriel could have gone back after the final overthrow of Morgoth, but her pride caused her to stay:
HoME X, Morgoth's Ring, The Shibolleth of Fëanor:

Pride still moved her [Galadriel] when, at the end of the Elder Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, and remained in Middle-earth.

And I think that this also serve to show that the Doom of Mandos wasn't final. Even Maedhros and Maglor should have gone baack to Valinor if it wasn't for the Oath that caused them to make one last desperate attempt at taking the Silmarils for themselves

But the Curse of Morgoth sure worked until its bitter end, didn't it?

Erestor Arcamen

Wasn't it written somewhere at the fleeing of the Noldor from Valinor that Galadriel didnt take the oath, but follwed anyways becasue she dreamt of having her own realm or something like that? I could be wrong my memory of those days is faded, as I too yearn for the West.

Gothmog

Lord of Balrogs

The problem with trying to argue this question is that the two things are completely different. The Curse of Morgoth is a declaration of intent that the things he says will come to pass because he wishes it. The Doom of Mandos on the other hand is simply a foretelling of what is going to happen regardless of what the Valar may want.

Morgoth in making his curse is saying whatever path you choose this will happen.
Mandos in pronouncing his Doom is saying, if you choose this path these things will happen.

So in effect they are both equally effective in what they do.

Thorondor_

Well-Known Member

The Curse of Morgoth is a declaration of intent that the things he says will come to pass because he wishes it. The Doom of Mandos on the other hand is simply a foretelling of what is going to happen regardless of what the Valar may want.

Morgoth in making his curse is saying whatever path you choose this will happen.
Mandos in pronouncing his Doom is saying, if you choose this path these things will happen.

"On the House of Feanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also"
I think that Mandos says here that it is (also) the power of the valar at work in the doom of the noldor.

YayGollum

Conscience of TTF

"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed" ---> One point. Unless someone knows of a character that counted every tear?

"and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out" ---> One point.

"so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains." ---> No score.

"On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East" ---> No score. I saw no wrath. Also, as a tiny as well as sideways note, I just checked to see if some sea god even messed with them on their way over, and I noticed something cool. Something about some helpful wind showing up to take them to that Middle Earth place, as if the Feanor character was in charge. Eru, wishing to see more of the cool movie that he sat down to watch? I wouldn't know. Unless there's a bit of wrath on the evil Manwe dude's part, saying ---> "Fine! You wish to go? I'll help! Have some wind! Go and get yourselves killed, for everything that I happen to care about, at least at the moment!" *much pathetic and overly dramatic sobbing*

"and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also." ---> No score. Same thing. Maybe I should have just left it attached? oh well.

"Their Oath shall drive them," ---> One point.

"and yet betray them," ---> Half of a point, I guess. It sort of did.

"and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue." ---> No score. When did that happen? *hides from people who might prove him wrong*

"To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass." ---> No score. Hm? That's just craziness. To evil end shall all things turn? All things? That is a bit too large.

"The Dispossessed shall they ever be for ever." ---> No score. It didn't turn out to be for forever.

"Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously" ---> No score, unless I am only allowed to look at one viewpoint's moral code.

"and have stained the land of Aman." ---> No score. just because ---> Isn't Aman the continent? Or is it just the collection of any random lands that might be considered paradisical that got taken away? Am not sure. They definitely didn't stain that continent, at least. Unless they mean to use 'stained' in some not literal sense.

"For blood ye shall render blood," ---> One point.

"and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief;" ---> One point. Well, if they can be killed at all, aren't they dwelling in Death's shadow pretty much anywhere? oh well.

"and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies," ---> One point, most probably.

"and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you." ---> Hm. Cool. This is an achingly obvious answer on where Orcs and trolls and dragons and things go when they die. Oh. Unless they were only talking about the people that these Noldor types had killed so far. oh well. One point, most probably.

"And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after." ---> One point. Sure, why not? I wouldn't be surprised if that stuff happened to at least one elf spirit.

"The Valar have spoken." ---> One point. Yes, they have spoken at all and about anything. I guess.

"a doom upon them of darkness and sorrow;" ---> One point.

"Sit now there; and look out upon the lands where evil and despair shall come upon those whom you lovest. Thou hast dared to mock me, and to question the power of Melkor, Master of the fates of Arda. Therefore with my eyes thou shalt see, and with my ears shalt hear; and never shalt thou move from this place until all is fulfilled unto its bitter end." ---> One point. All of that stuff happened, at all. Except for maybe that last part. It depends on what Mel was talking about when he mentioned all gettting to be fulfilled until some end. Who knows what 'all' or 'end' he might have been thinking of?

Final Score ---> Nine as well as one half of a point for the Doom Of Some Dude Sometimes Called Mandos. Two points for Mel's curse.

Anyways, I could have broken that up a bit more, to give Mel some more points, but the other side still would have won, since it had more to say. Now I gots to ask (maybe this was brought up before, but I don't remember this debate very well. I wonder what points I thought up back then. ) ---> What is meant by effective? More stuff worked for the Mandos thing, but that's just because he mentioned more stuff. More stuff happened to the Noldor types, but that's just because we happen to be writing about an entire race versus one dude and his family. Must I now rate my points while using a scale of one to ten? --->

"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed" ---> This gets a six. Could have gotten more, but it's a pretty annoying little bit of prophecy. Who is going to count every tear? The few who have the ability to do that wouldn't even care to.

"a doom upon them of darkness and sorrow;" ---> This gets a ten because that was an especially dark as well as sorrowful doom. Poor guys.

Gothmog

Lord of Balrogs

"On the House of Feanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also"
I think that Mandos says here that it is (also) the power of the valar at work in the doom of the noldor.

The point being that The Doom of Mandos was a foretelling of what would happen if the Noldor followed the path they were on then. Had they turned aside it would have been different. It is only on the House of Feanor that the Wrath of the Valar lay, and even then Mandos only foretold what would happen, he did not Curse them. Morgoth on the other hand did not give a choice of paths. He cursed the House of Hurin regardless of any change of path by those of the house.

Arvedui

Stargazer

Thorondor_

Well-Known Member

The point being that The Doom of Mandos was a foretelling of what would happen if the Noldor followed the path they were on then

I don't think there was any "if" (at least for the oath-takers), since the herald says: "Their Oath shall drive them" - though I may be wrong in this interpretation.

It is only on the House of Feanor that the Wrath of the Valar lay, and even then Mandos only foretold what would happen, he did not Curse them

I still doubt that in the doom we are only dealing with "simply a foretelling of what is going to happen regardless of what the Valar may want", otherwise there would be no need for mentioning the wrath of the valar. Moreover:

And they heard a loud voice, solemn and terrible, that bade them stand and give ear. Then all halted and stood still, and from end to end of the hosts of the Noldor the voice was heard speaking the curse and prophecy which is called the Prophecy of the North, and the Doom of the Noldor.Much it foretold in dark words, which the Noldor understood not until the woes indeed after befell them; but all heard the curse that was uttered upon those that would not stay nor seek the doom and pardon of the Valar.

And Ulmo warned Turgon that he also lay under the Doom of Mandos, which Ulmo had no power to remove.
- Thus it may come to pass, he said, that the curse of the Noldor shall find thee too ere the end, and treason awake within thy walls

Gothmog

Lord of Balrogs

I don't think there was any "if" (at least for the oath-takers), since the herald says: "Their Oath shall drive them" - though I may be wrong in this interpretation.

Of course there was an "if". Those of the Noldor who did indeed turn aside from this path and returned to Valinor recieved the pardon of the Valar. As for the oath-takers, this was beyond the power of the Valar to change. They had irrevocably set their own feet upon that path by their own actions.

I still doubt that in the doom we are only dealing with "simply a foretelling of what is going to happen regardless of what the Valar may want", otherwise there would be no need for mentioning the wrath of the valar.

The only thing that Mandos said the Valar would actively do is to shut Valinor off from the Noldor who left at that time and in that manner. All else is simply a foretelling of the results to the Noldor of continuing on that path. As for the 'Wrath of the Valar' They do not say that they will do anything to the House of Feanor or those that follow, only that they will do nothing to help them and will ignore their cries.

And Ulmo warned Turgon that he also lay under the Doom of Mandos, which Ulmo had no power to remove.
- Thus it may come to pass, he said, that the curse of the Noldor shall find thee too ere the end, and treason awake within thy walls

Of course Ulmo had no power to remove the Doom of Mandos. The foretelling was not at that time complete. As for the 'Curse of the Noldor'. That is not from the Valar but from a small company of the Noldor themselves. The Oath of Feanor is the 'Curse of the Noldor' all the woes of that people came from the uttering of those fateful words by Feanor and his short-sighted sons!

So the Doom of Mandos was a warning to those who followed the oath-takers of what this self-imposed curse would cause.

Ingwë

Creeping Death

So the Doom of Mandos was a warning to those who followed the oath-takers of what this self-imposed curse would cause.

The Doom of Mandos was a warning to the Elves who followed Fëanor and the Curse of Melkor was to the Elves of Fëanor. However, the Curse of Melkor is because of his hate to Fëanor and the Doom of Mandos is because of the Fëanor's Oath. Melkor hated the Elves and wanted to destroy them. Mandos didn't hate them but the oath made him angry (and not only him). I think that the Doom and the conversation before it was the last try to make the Elves not to leave Valinor.
The Curse of Melkor was removed after his overthrowing but the Doom of Mandos remained till the last Fëanor's sons died So I think that the Doom of Mandos was more effective. And we mustn't forget that the Doom of Mandos was 'supported' by the other Valar; Melkor's curse was only of him.

Gothmog

Lord of Balrogs

Ingwë, The 'Curse of Morgoth' was directed at Hurin and his family. The Curse of the Noldor that I was refering to is contained in the Doom of Mandos. Mandos only foretold what that self-imposed curse of the oath-takers would do to themselves and to the Noldor as a people.

Thorondor_

Well-Known Member

As for the oath-takers, this was beyond the power of the Valar to change. They had irrevocably set their own feet upon that path by their own actions

Then I guess we are in agreement - for the oath-takers, given the nature of their oath, there is no "if", just as there was no "if" in the case of those affected by Melkor's curse.

The only thing that Mandos said the Valar would actively do is to shut Valinor off from the Noldor who left at that time and in that manner. All else is simply a foretelling of the results to the Noldor of continuing on that path.

I disagree. It is not just a foretelling, it is also a curse(sorry for repeating); from Of the flight of the noldor:

And they heard a loud voice, solemn and terrible, that bade them stand and give ear. Then all halted and stood still, and from end to end of the hosts of the Noldor the voice was heard speaking the curse and prophecy which is called the Prophecy of the North, and the Doom of the Noldor.Much it foretold in dark words, which the Noldor understood not until the woes indeed after befell them; but all heard the curse that was uttered upon those that would not stay nor seek the doom and pardon of the Valar

As for the 'Wrath of the Valar' They do not say that they will do anything to the House of Feanor or those that follow, only that they will do nothing to help them and will ignore their cries

Imo, what the wrath of the valar does is to punishe the exiled through this curse, which reinforces the prophecy.

Gothmog

Lord of Balrogs

Ok, with the exception of shutting off the Noldor from Valinor and ignoring their cries for help. What did the "Curse" claim that the Valar would do or cause to happen to any of the Nodor, even those of the house of Feanor, while they were in Middle-earth?

It seems to me that the only Valarian "Curse" involved the Valar saying "Ok, if that is how you want it, that is how you can have it" and what would happen after they came to Mandos. Not much of a "Curse". Though no doubt the Noldor later thought it somewhat over-the-top, but that is not really surprising is it?

As for the "Wrath of the Valar" Feanor and his sons had done something that the Valar could not or would not forgive, The Oath. The rest of the Noldor, even those who followed Feanor at least had the possibilty of forgiveness. According to Mandos those that came to his house would remain there for a very long time before having a chance of being reincarnated. The oath-takers would simply not be reincarnated.

Alcuin

of Zarkanya

Gee, I don’t know. The Curse of Morgoth on Húrin’s family is pretty tense. He did this because Húrin defied him, and Morgoth sought to humble and break him. If you consider it, that’s a rather petty reason to expend that kind of power, but then, as the ultimate tyrant, it is quite typical of tyrants in the real world to insist upon worship and adoration, murdering and torturing those who refuse. (E.g., Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Castro, Saddam… don’t mean to be political or invoke Godwin’s Law, just to cite some recent real-world examples, and even the older ones are within living memory of many TTF members.)

Morgoth had corrupted the very stuff of Arda, as Tolkien describes in Morgoth’s Ring:

To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth – hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be ‘stained’.

But ever the Noldor feared most the treachery of those of their own kin, who had been thralls in Angband; for Morgoth used some of these for his evil purposes, and feigning to give them liberty sent them abroad, but their wills were chained to his, and they strayed only to come back to him again.

This he did to many whom he released. Whether the unfortunate Gwindor was so enchanted is unknown, but I read no evidence of this into the telling of the story.

The purpose of Glaurung, however, was quite different: Glaurung was actively seeking to destroy Turin and Níniel, and he enchanted Turin

Glaurung spoke behind [Turin], saying in a fell voice: ‘…if thou tarry for Finduilas, then never shalt thou see Morwen again, and never at all shalt thou see Nienor thy sister; and they will curse thee.’

But Turin passed away on the northward road, and Glaurung laughed once more, for he had accomplished the errand of his Master.

When the Curse of Morgoth ran its course, it was done and over. Not at Cabed-en-Aras on the Teiglin in Brethil, but in Doriath before the thrones of Thingol and Melian:

…Melian … said: ‘Húrin Thalion, Morgoth hath bewitched thee; for he that seeth through Morgoth’s eyes, willing or unwilling, seeth all things crooked…. With the voice of Morgoth thou dost now upbraid thy friends.’

And hearing the words of Melian Húrin stood moveless, and he gazed long into the eyes of the Queen; and there in Menegroth, defended still by the Girdle of Melian from the darkness of the Enemy, he read the truth of all that was done, and tasted at last the fullness of woe that was measured for him by Morgoth Bauglir. And he spoke … ‘Receive now, lord, the Necklace of the Dwarves, as a gift from one who has nothing, and as a memorial of Húrin of Dor-Lómin. For now my fate is fulfilled, and the purpose of Morgoth achieved; but I am his thrall no longer.’

So the Curse of Morgoth required Morgoth’s active intervention through Glaurung his agent, an expenditure of his power, and came to a definite and specific end. (As an aside, the Second Doom of Mandos says that at the Dagor Dagorath, Turin will return with the Black Sword and truly kill Morgoth once and for all, avenging all Elves and Men for the wickedness of Morgoth, and specifically for his Curse on the House of Húrin.)

In contrast, the Doom of Mandos required no effort on the part of the Valar except that they made it impossible for the Noldor and their allies to return to Valinor by creating a sea of shadows in the approaches to Valinor. The Doom of Mandos ran on its own, a consequence of the terrible Oath of Fëanor and his sons, and from the distrust sown among all the Eldar as a consequence of the slaughter of the Teleri at Alqualondë. It ensnared the Sindar, most notably Thingol, by mere association with the Noldor and Edain; and in Thingol’s case, by naming a Silmaril as the bridal-price for Lúthien. Finally, the Doom of Mandos never ended: it continued to haunt the Noldor even in Tol Eressëa where they dwelt in regret and still outside Valinor, unable to forget and unable to amend their actions. The Doom of Mandos was not a “spell” but a foretelling, a “doom,” a matter of fate.

In one respect, comparing the Curse of Morgoth to the Doom of Mandos is like the proverbial comparison of apples and oranges: they are different things: the one a spell, the other a warning from foresight; their curse the Noldor brought upon themselves. But from another perspective, the Curse of Morgoth led to a limited, albeit horrific series of events; while the Doom of Mandos caused nothing, but foreshadowed the fall of the Eldar and Edain, to some extent the destruction of Beleriand, and the end of the House of Fëanor:

For Celebrimbor son of Curufin son of Fëanor was caught also by that doom (from the version in Morgoth’s Ring):

‘Lo! on the House of Fëanor the wrath of the gods lieth from the West into the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by the treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.

and indeed, Celebrimbor made the Rings of Power with the Noldorin Mírdain of Eregion, they were snatched away from him, what he began well was turned to evil ends, and he was dispossessed of both the Rings and his kingdom, Eregion, leaving Gil-galad of the House of Fingolfin (or Finarfin, depending upon which lineage you prefer) to rule the Noldor.

But Turin passed away on the northward road, and Glaurung laughed once more, for he had accomplished the errand of his Master.

.

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