Mastering the Art of Income Generation with the Magic Compendium

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And then it boils down to frequency. If you're in Forgotten Realms, expect to be making items constantly for the bazillion adventurers running around redistributing wealth. In other settings, you might sell a scroll every week or two and a bigger magic item once a season (and still be rolling in coin, btw).

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The compendium starts by outlining the importance of setting clear financial goals and creating a plan to achieve them. It then offers advice on identifying and capitalizing on career opportunities, such as networking, honing in-demand skills, and seeking additional training or education. The compendium also delves into the realm of entrepreneurship, providing guidance on starting and growing a successful business.

Selling magic items

I know I can't ask much from the D&D economy, but I need to talk about it, it's just so stupid!

Let's say I'm the son of a rich family and my father gave me 6 000gp or maybe I'm a retired level 5 adventurer with 6000 spare gp.

Then, I open a small stall in a market and put a sign that says:
"We buy your magical items for 55% of the selling price"

This way, you'll easily spend your 6000gp.
Let's say you get 5 +1 weapons.

Just switch you sign for this one:
"We sell magical weapons with a 10% discount"
You sell your 5 weapons and make a profit of 3500gp.
Must take a lot more time for other kind of merchants to make that much easy money.

Do this a few more times and you'll be ready to put your 2 signs up at the same time and make stupid amount of money doing nothing.
Just need to be in an area visited by a couple of adventurers party and you'll see them often because you pay more for their stuff and sell for less.

Maybe everything should just cost a lot less and treasures be a lot smaller.
That way, maybe the magic items merchants wouldn't be able to buy themselves a bunch of castles.

AD&D 2nd was way better for magic items (well, for me).
They were hard to make and hard to find.
Was hard to make a living as a magical items crafter when you needed a 8th level spell and a CON point to make one single magic item.
As well as some different rares ingredients for each items.

I know it's more fun for the classes with magical items crafting skills now. but it's still stupid (IMO)

Anyone came up with some house rules for this?

First, accept that the economy of a pen and paper RPG must be intrinsically silly.

Second, award half as much treasure.

Third, allow players to sell recovered magic items at FULL MARKET PRICE as long as they are in good condition. Evil, gross, and oversized items in the wrong markets are worth a good deal less.

Of course, I'm sure this is just as easy to break. Reality affords certain economic guarantees. but as you may have noticed, even real economic systems with real-world resources can be horribly abused and broken.

gorrath wrote:

Was hard to make a living as a magical items crafter when you needed a 8th level spell and a CON point to make one single magic item.
As well as some different rares ingredients for each items.

Incorrect. The con was a percentile chance of happening: it was not a automatic loss.

The rare ingredient part was a variant rule not the official one (although likely your DM used it as official one or you wouldn't be vouching it).

Kevin Andrew Murphy Contributor Jun 6, 2010, 04:34 pm

Here's how I run it:

Merchants who buy for 50% of an items value aren't merchants. They're pawnbrowkers. They don't much care what a magic item is. They give you your GP and a pawn ticket.

There are also special magic items dealers. They'll pay 75% of list value, but are choosy about what they take. However, they will also take other of your items for them to sell on commission.

Buyers are people who want your item and want it now. They pay full price so long as an item is in good condition.

There are also rich socialites and collectors who will pay more than full price for custom commissions and antiques with interesting provenances.

gorrath wrote:

Then, I open a small stall in a market and put a sign that says:

"We buy your magical items for 55% of the selling price"

.

Just switch you sign for this one:
"We sell magical weapons with a 10% discount"
You sell your 5 weapons and make a profit of 3500gp.
Must take a lot more time for other kind of merchants

I have a few DVDs to sell you on how to get rich buying and selling real estate.

Joking aside, finding buyers and sellers takes time and footwork. Any character in D&D can make ridiculous amounts of money, given time. (e.g. weaponsmithing, busking, spellcasting) But that's boring, and frankly, not what D&D's about. By the time you make any serious dough, the BBEG's killed the orphans, built a castle, and taken control of MacGuffinton. If that's the game my players want to play, then they might as well replace their miniatures with thimbles and Scottish terriers 'cause the next game board I pull out is gonna have Park Place where Mordor used to be.

gorrath wrote:

I know I can't ask much from the D&D economy, but I need to talk about it, it's just so stupid!

Yeah it's pretty bad.

I'd suggest that you work on your world and see what you think should fit in there.

It might be that purchasing/selling magic items is near unheard of, etc.

Figure out what you think is reasonable and fits into your world concept.

Whatever you come up with will likely be much better than this 'forget about it' "economy" that 3e came up with and 4e went even further astray on.

There's nothing intrinsically "stupid" or "silly" about the economic system in DnD or PF. It works perfectly well for what it's intended to do. If you want to play an economic simulation game then maybe you shouldn't have picked up the book with the great big dragon on the cover.

gorrath wrote:

Then, I open a small stall in a market and put a sign that says:

"We buy your magical items for 55% of the selling price"

This way, you'll easily spend your 6000gp.
Let's say you get 5 +1 weapons.

Just switch you sign for this one:
"We sell magical weapons with a 10% discount"

INSERT STEP: Wait 5 years to sell magic swords.

Quote:
You sell your 5 weapons and make a profit of 3500gp.

Seriously, who buys magic swords other than adventurers? Buy a 2310gp (before discount) +1 Longsword to get +1 to hit and damage. or 310gp for +1 to hit. The local guards won't buy them - they don't have that kind of scratch. The local adventurers MIGHT, but if they're adventuring they probably found their own +1 weapons (just like the PCs who sold you those swords did). So yeah, you might do a turnover of one per year to some rich merchant's son or young noble who 'must have' a magic sword. Or they'll spend the extra cash on gold and gem encrusted masterwork swords, you never know. Or they'll wait until an adventurer comes into town with 5 MORE +1 longswords and buy them off him at 1/2 price (hey, it happened once. ).

I more and more doubt the ability to 'flip' magic items - people who buy them are buying them to use them, not re-sale them IMO. A system where they can be broken down for 'enchantment juice' (4th edition had this, did it not) would improve things, as it makes magic items a commodity - that +1 longsword could be used to enchant a Ring of Protection +1 or Cloak of Resistance +1.

Starbuck_II wrote: gorrath wrote:

Was hard to make a living as a magical items crafter when you needed a 8th level spell and a CON point to make one single magic item.
As well as some different rares ingredients for each items.

Incorrect. The con was a percentile chance of happening: it was not a automatic loss.

The rare ingredient part was a variant rule not the official one (although likely your DM used it as official one or you wouldn't be vouching it).

You're right about the CON.

The automatic loss was for casting permanent spells on you.
It was only a 5% chance of losing a point in CON when crafting magic items.
Still, it makes you think twice before starting to craft a bunch of items.

About the ingredient, well, I just checked in my Black PHB.
First option, you need to hunt for special ingredients like monsters parts.
Second option, you need to find weird ingredients with no idea on how to get them.
It doesn't say which is the official rule.
Anyway, with both options, you need to find rare ingredients and it might take a while.

Also, the crafter needed to be high level. Now any low-level wizards can start crafting a bunch of stuff.

It was kinda cool to have to cast "contact other planes" to get the informations needed to craft an item. You weren't even sure if they had told you the real recipe. lol

Helic wrote: gorrath wrote:

Then, I open a small stall in a market and put a sign that says:

"We buy your magical items for 55% of the selling price"

This way, you'll easily spend your 6000gp.
Let's say you get 5 +1 weapons.

Just switch you sign for this one:
"We sell magical weapons with a 10% discount"

INSERT STEP: Wait 5 years to sell magic swords.

Quote:
You sell your 5 weapons and make a profit of 3500gp.

Seriously, who buys magic swords other than adventurers? Buy a 2310gp (before discount) +1 Longsword to get +1 to hit and damage. or 310gp for +1 to hit. The local guards won't buy them - they don't have that kind of scratch. The local adventurers MIGHT, but if they're adventuring they probably found their own +1 weapons (just like the PCs who sold you those swords did). So yeah, you might do a turnover of one per year to some rich merchant's son or young noble who 'must have' a magic sword. Or they'll spend the extra cash on gold and gem encrusted masterwork swords, you never know. Or they'll wait until an adventurer comes into town with 5 MORE +1 longswords and buy them off him at 1/2 price (hey, it happened once. ).

I more and more doubt the ability to 'flip' magic items - people who buy them are buying them to use them, not re-sale them IMO. A system where they can be broken down for 'enchantment juice' (4th edition had this, did it not) would improve things, as it makes magic items a commodity - that +1 longsword could be used to enchant a Ring of Protection +1 or Cloak of Resistance +1.

Well, the weapons were just an example. It's obvious the merchant would make some research to know which items are in demand and he won't buy any magical crap people are trying to sell.

The merchant could also be a wizard and he might only craft cheap items that sells well (cloack of elvenkind, bag of holding, hat of disguide, etc).
He could also take custom orders. That way he would sell 100% of his items and always sell them as soon as they are finished.
You need only to find one high level party and you'll make a ton of money crafting them some +6 stats items. lol

If you want to play that kind of game you will probably have to introduce alot of other factors like :

taxes you don't think the local king will let you sell your items taxfree did you ? especially on such enterprising business, you might get some questions about where you got your items in the first place.. prolly more taxes coming your way.

competition hell if you can do it so can everyone else, there you are trying to make your merchandise work for you and a bunch of real adventurers stroll into town willing to sell for 50 % and go back to adventuring. Maybe you get lucky and they will buy a magic item from you though, maybe you get unlucky and the rogue might swipe you of some valueables..

quick and dirty sure they are not the best rules, but they are quick and functional, if you want to do it differently, you will find some items won't sell even at 50% before taxes, maintenance, expenses and loss of value. It will take time too, lots of time most likely, it is a way to skip tedious and repetitive roleplay. It makes sense to skim the potential rewards a bit, did your character invest in diplomacy, appraise and knowledge arcana or is it hoping for the Player exception to being influenced by an npc's good diplomacy check to cheat or lower your prices ?

To me it doesn't seem worth it to spend a few pages of the Core rule book on a new and improved market sales techniques. The rules work fine for what they are supposed to do, if you run a very low magic campaign it might be another thing altogether.

Kevin Andrew Murphy Contributor Jun 7, 2010, 01:22 am
Helic wrote:

I more and more doubt the ability to 'flip' magic items - people who buy them are buying them to use them, not re-sale them IMO. A system where they can be broken down for 'enchantment juice' (4th edition had this, did it not) would improve things, as it makes magic items a commodity - that +1 longsword could be used to enchant a Ring of Protection +1 or Cloak of Resistance +1.

Honestly, this is one of the things I like least about 4e. Having "residium" means that any magic item that is colorful or odd or just plain quirky gets smelted down to make some deathly dull but point-efficient "big six" item. The princess's silver milkpail which gives +10 to Profession Milkmaid checks and plays "Fur Elise" when milk hits the bottom? SMASH! Look, the artificer beat it into this metal hat that makes you smarter! Isn't that so much better?

Um, no. Crowns of Intellect are a dime a dozen. But the princess's musical silver milkpail is a historic curio that makes the world more interesting, because it has more of a story behind it than some adventurer wanting to min-max themselves with optimal items.

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote: Helic wrote:

I more and more doubt the ability to 'flip' magic items - people who buy them are buying them to use them, not re-sale them IMO. A system where they can be broken down for 'enchantment juice' (4th edition had this, did it not) would improve things, as it makes magic items a commodity - that +1 longsword could be used to enchant a Ring of Protection +1 or Cloak of Resistance +1.

Honestly, this is one of the things I like least about 4e. Having "residium" means that any magic item that is colorful or odd or just plain quirky gets smelted down to make some deathly dull but point-efficient "big six" item. The princess's silver milkpail which gives +10 to Profession Milkmaid checks and plays "Fur Elise" when milk hits the bottom? SMASH! Look, the artificer beat it into this metal hat that makes you smarter! Isn't that so much better?

Um, no. Crowns of Intellect are a dime a dozen. But the princess's musical silver milkpail is a historic curio that makes the world more interesting, because it has more of a story behind it than some adventurer wanting to min-max themselves with optimal items.

lol for once I think I agree with Kevin here +1

Remco Sommeling wrote:

If you want to play that kind of game you will probably have to introduce alot of other factors like :

taxes .

competition .

And not to forget: security if you have magic items in stock worth thousands of gp, they will attract a lot of criminals (and not only the low-level ones).

gorrath wrote:

The merchant could also be a wizard and he might only craft cheap items that sells well (cloack of elvenkind, bag of holding, hat of disguide, etc).

Thousands of gp in inventory (still) that might or might not move. The only real solution is.

Quote:

He could also take custom orders. That way he would sell 100% of his items and always sell them as soon as they are.

This. Wizards (well, anybody with Item Creation Feats) can make money this way. Heck, they probably don't even use their own money (half up front for supplies, balance on completion) while doing it. But that's wizards, not so much merchants. You could be both, of course, but that's a very limited section of the populace we're talking here.

And then it boils down to frequency. If you're in Forgotten Realms, expect to be making items constantly for the bazillion adventurers running around redistributing wealth. In other settings, you might sell a scroll every week or two and a bigger magic item once a season (and still be rolling in coin, btw).

Remco Sommeling wrote:

If you want to play that kind of game you will probably have to introduce alot of other factors like :

taxes you don't think the local king will let you sell your items taxfree did you ? especially on such enterprising business, you might get some questions about where you got your items in the first place.. prolly more taxes coming your way.

Taxation is a sticky widget. Forget modern concepts like income taxes (introduced during WWII, IIRC). Even taxes on businesses, while there (silversmiths and goldsmiths especially), were still a small percentage of the gross. Anything bigger than single digit taxation probably will drive all magic item sales into black market territory.

Quote:
competition

Yes and no. Buying the items from the PCs requires a LOT of venture capital (takes money to make money) and it's a bad merchant (or VERY GOOD merchant) who has big sacks of gold sitting around (should be in inventory, out as loans, invested in shipping, etcetera).

Quote:

To me it doesn't seem worth it to spend a few pages of the Core rule book on a new and improved market sales techniques. The rules work fine for what they are supposed to do, if you run a very low magic campaign it might be another thing altogether.

That's the thing about PF or D&D - the economic models will change based on the availability of magic. Temples especially will be rich - things like Cure Disease, Raise Dead and Regeneration will be highly sought after spells in ANY society. But if 5th level (plus) Clerics are hard to find, they won't be so wealthy.

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

Honestly, this is one of the things I like least about 4e. Having "residium" means that any magic item that is colorful or odd or just plain quirky gets smelted down to make some deathly dull but point-efficient "big six" item. The princess's silver milkpail which gives +10 to Profession Milkmaid checks and plays "Fur Elise" when milk hits the bottom? SMASH! Look, the artificer beat it into this metal hat that makes you smarter! Isn't that so much better?

Given the cost of magic items, only insane people make impractical garbage like this. Fun though they might be, handing out these things to PCs is like punishing them (ESPECIALLY if you apply them to WBL).

Here's a true story. Our group, years ago, was playing D&D3.0 in Greyhawk. We were fighting an evil-druid cult and hoo-ray, we beat them up real good. Time to get the loot! Surely our super-stingy GM would hand out SOME magical goodie!

Antlers of Resistance +1. As in, a headband with two freaking huge deer antlers bolted onto them, offering +1 to all saving throws. These things were _completely_ impractical except as. well. ceremonial gear for a druid cultist (see insane people comment above). Sell it? Impossible. Wear it? Impractical and ridiculous. To this very day, our GM still shakes his head and says "I dunno what the hell I was thinking."

What the whole Residium thing does is takes the gp OUT of the magic item equation. While you _might_ be able to buy residium with gp, your average person has literally _no_ use for it, probably can't identify it as authentic (is it sparkly residium, or just clean white sand?). So they won't accept it as currency. You can reduce the cash imbalance PCs often create - they don't walk into town with 15000gp to spend, but 500gp and 14500 units of residium. You reduce the difficulties involved with carrying 15000gp (300 lbs of gold!) as well.

This system ALREADY works in another game system (Ars Magica), where you have vis (power) and silver. Wizards need silver for living expenses, but if they want to perform big magic or enchantments, they need vis instead, and seldom trade one for another.

As for magical curios, residium makes those items MORE likely to exist. Let's say a wizard makes a bunch of magical gear for adventurer X. He's left with a substantial pile of residium profit. Since he can't spend it like he could gold (on, say, a substantial library addition, his mistress, or a solid gold throne, which every wizard deserves), he'll make quirky or everyday magical items like a Self-Lighting Pipe or Footstool of Foot Massages. He's not an adventurer, after all. does he need another +1 on a Cloak or Bracers?

Kevin Andrew Murphy Contributor Jun 7, 2010, 10:25 am

You know, I give things like this to my players all the time, and I don't feel like I'm punishing them at all. I feel that the odd magic items are an invitation to be creative, and they seldom disappoint me.

As you said, only insane people would want such things, but the world is full of insane people. My players have generally found that strange trinkets and magical curios make excellent hostess gifts for wizard kings, powerful witches, dragons and so on who are more interested in having something that no one else has, and such beings often gift them in return with old adventuring gear they have in their closets which is no longer of use to them but would conceivably be of use to the party.

First, accept that the economy of a pen and paper RPG must be intrinsically silly.
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