Exploring the Lyrics: The Dark Themes in Goth Vebe Surf Curse Songs

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Anyone who sells magic items can afford some degree of protection, whether it's bodyguards or magical defenses. But the best way of keeping the players more interested in honest trade is incentives.

The shopkeepers all know each other, and all talk about the founder of the chain who still runs the really big one in the far-off city, and getting on the good side of one of them will put them on a good footing with the others - but robbing from one will get them black-listed with the entire chain, and they ll have trouble finding someone who ll sell them so much as a tindertwig. Like if I rolled a celestial armor for example on the list of magic items slot, they would probably find it in possession of a retired Paladin adventurer and bargains to get said items.

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GMs: How do *you* handle magic item shops?

I'm looking ahead to the time when my players in an ongoing campaign will start being able to afford lots of magical gear. In past games I've let them have access to whatever items they wanted, as long as they could afford them, but I'd like to keep magical gear a little bit more "story-oriented" this time. That's certainly not to say I want to limit what they have access to - but I want the process of obtaining say, a +2 keen longsword to be a little bit more interesting than an out-of-character "I buy a +2 keen longsword, then we sleep for 8 hours." I'm looking for ideas to make magic item buying a bit more memorable and engaging, rather than turning it into a roleplay-free stat boost.

How have you handled the "magic item shop" syndrome in your games?

I generally just make magic items available when the PC's can afford them. So many of them are things you need just because the system expects you to have them that it's not really worth making them noteworthy.

Right now I'm doing a campaign that just takes place in one town so I have crafters of every kind that can make stuff, but later on when I expand the universe some I look forward to making a character out of Magic Mart, the owner and proprietor of Magic Mart.

I hate them. I hate when players say 'I go buy/shopping for/want x' and immediately start marking the GP off their sheet. I hate that magic items are needed by the system.

For Pathfinder I would institute mage's guilds in the larger cities and run it as though they regulate the sale of non-trivial magic items going so far that they sack little town with their local government authority if reports that they're trying to be sold there.

Any non-consumable items are rare as all hell and have definite ties to the campaign world's history. When our group has the time, I like to use the piecemeal armor variant system and provide full set bonuses tied to the armor's visual theme. If the campaign's low magic, then I have the players activate the magic weapons/armor they've found before applying its effects. No one's complained and some have even remembered the custom names I gave the weapons from previous years.

I made a houserule system where essentially everyone gets wealth balance level equivalent points to spend every level to get the stat bonuses equivalent to the big 6. Magic items come from stories, and are additive to the stat bonuses. This was my answer to magic mart and the christmas tree effect. I think a forum search will find you many other similar houserules.

Whenever I hand out (non-consumable) magic items, since they're so rare, I give each of them a name and short backstory. This is to make magic items feel more special. Also, since magic items are so rare, as a GM, I don't have to do that much work worrying about the PC's wealth balance level.

Personally, I make it depend on what city they are located in, etc. The larger the city, the higher-power stuff can be custom-made, but it takes ordering and waiting the time it would take an NPC to craft it.

Certain staples are available immediately, depending on size as well. For example, in a small village you're going to find standard gear, but only a handful of MW items if you're lucky. You might find level-1 potions and scrolls from the one caster in town.

I am not a fan of the Feat Required to Craft Magic Item rule. I usually allow casters to craft items at 3/4 price without the feat, or if they take the feat, I have it lessen time required to craft in addition to the 1/2 price benefit. I strictly hold to required time to make magic items, though, to help prevent the overnight shopping.

No matter how large the city, however, there's usually a cap on how powerful you can get items without either a.) finding them already enchanted that way or b.) making the items yourself (or via party member).

Magic items are not really all that interesting or special in PF/3E. I tend to just give up on story elements of items and just let the PCs buy what they want. I focus my energy on the plot and NPCs and the adventure. I found its just too much work for too little payout.

The one thing thats got me itching to try out 5E is the seperation of magic items from the system that sounds lovely!

If using the rules-as-written, I use the 75% availability rule from the CRB. That is usually enough to curb the sense of entitlement that is usually my biggest issue with magic shops.

Given the choice, I use my house rules for "Wealth Rating" and "Enhancement Bonus by Level". This eliminates the need for mandatory magic items (the big six) and gives you a clear picture of what the PCs can afford to just buy. Magic shops become a setpiece, and I include them or not depending on campaign (Kingmaker has zero, Legacy of Fire has a ton).

Wow! That's a lot of diverse suggestions.

In this particular case, I don't plan to reduce availability of magic items - I want it to be a standard campaign, and the "big six" are going to be present as normal. It's the "how" that I'm interested in. Should I require skill checks to see what sort of items they can find? Should it be an in-character experience? I'm comparing different ways to make magic items a part of the experience rather than completely divorced from it.

The whole "magic item shop" thing wouldn't be an issue if gear wasn't a built-in part of PCs' power progression. If your power level was purely a function of your character level, then you could chuck the whole Magic Items chapter out the window and include as many or as few magic items as you like, enabling the inclusion of things like Excalibur, The One Ring, the Master Sword, the Elder Wand, etc without them either showing up too late to be relevant or else getting surpassed by other gear later on.

Wow! That's a lot of diverse suggestions.

In this particular case, I don't plan to reduce availability of magic items - I want it to be a standard campaign, and the "big six" are going to be present as normal. It's the "how" that I'm interested in. Should I require skill checks to see what sort of items they can find? Should it be an in-character experience? I'm comparing different ways to make magic items a part of the experience rather than completely divorced from it.

Know your players.

If they would respond well to more complexity in outfitting their PCs, then this is a good idea.

If they see outfitting as a speedbump that limits the progress of the action, then maybe something as simple as the RAW 1-in-4 chance is better.

The best choice has more to do with the players' expectations than anything. If you really want to change course, you'll have to manage their expectations first if you're going to succeed.

That's what the 75% d100 check is supposed to represent.

I use the 75% rule + the settlement price limit. It's just easier that way, I don't want to write a side story every time someone wants to buy something.
If you want to limit it further, to preven the "magic shop"-feeling, remember that you're makeing it harder for everyone.

I do understand the charm with low-magic settings, where you need to have contact with the wizard (or even be the wizard) who makes magic stuff. Or where magic is found, not bought. But it will prolong the game, and everyone may not like it.

And as a player, I really dislike it if a DM stoppes me from getting the items I want.

I use the classification of tiers associated to a city's size on whether or not to make the check. If the city size has a dash they just don't have any. However, you could tweak the check since Paizo decided to introduce more categories within the major three that adjusts the 75% figure to be more appropriate. So, start 75% for lesser minor items, 70% for medium minor, 65% for major minor, and so on until 35% for major major items.

In homebrews I usually don't bother with many magical items. Any permanent items are generally story-relevant.

In Rise of the Runelords (and, soon, Shattered Star) I included an old Varisian woman that specialized in getting items to the correct owners. So they'd trade in their piles of unhelpful items for more appropriate items and she'd, in turn, trade their cast offs with people who'd appreciate them.

The idea of just letting people buy whatever they want is kind of foreign to me. But the PCs can't be the only people wanting to sell items in a city like Magnimar.

The closest to a true magic shop in my games would probably be crafting. If anyone were interested, I'd create a recipe-based crafting system to allow for customization while still providing some direction.

My players are pretty content just getting loot and shopping the hard way, though.

75% + settlement limit, and usually bas the characters out of or near enough to a metropolis that they can do their shopping.

However, you don't find magic items on the shelf in a store. You find someone who has the capability of crafting it and an opening in their schedule to do so. So they pay for the item then come back in X amount of days to pick it up.

I don't play wealth by level, I role play player contacts and 'favours' for powerful individuals allow limited access to purchasing items. That way the characters have weaknesses and have to think to overcome stuff.

I use the “Olde Magik Shoppe” called The Gorgon Zola’s which is a random magical shop which travels around and appears in every town and city. The trick is finding it. It is ran by three women a young pretty girl, an adult motherly sort and an old woman … no-one knows if they are all the same person or not but them. Time works differently in the shoppe; one of the players sweet talked the young maiden into a tryst as a partial payment and the next time they visiting the matronly aspect was large with child, the time afterwards the door was opened by a young child.

The Shoppe appears in a random location and the players need to find it each time they want to go visiting. The door is always solidly locked and curtains drawn; hammering on the door for several minutes will usually provide a response as the door creaks open to a dusty shop front with a glass topped counter and a bead curtain leading to the rear. Anything bought there is usually 10-20% higher than normal price but it is the only play that you can reliably get magic items. There is a flat 50% chance they have what you want in stock, with another 20% chance they have something similar. There is also a chance you can get something cheap … but it has … oddities.

Their “special” customers get a medallion that allows them to find the shop easier and even call it to them for a special price; however this medallion allows the shop owners to scry upon the person wearing it and devours a little bit of their souls each day. This results in a slower XP advancement as some is siphoned off to the shop owners … what they use it for is anyone’s guess …

Special items are usually interesting, too good a deal to be true and tend to have “interesting” side effects. Each shopping trip is a roleplay adventure and I have characters who refuse to go shopping for magical items because of it. … (he just does not trust them and insists they store all their medallions in a bag of holding) The party once traded the body of their gnome Druid and sundry other items for an item they could use. The shoppe got a new assistant that day … Don’t think they ever thought of the rag wrapped help they found the next time they went as anything other than another oddity of the Shoppe.

If they are going for a +1 sword they go elsewhere … if they are looking for something more exotic then they come here and experience the strangeness of the shoppe.

The truth behind the Shoppe is up to you. But this is what I use and my players enjoy it.

In my setting, the pcs don't find magic items normally just like that, except consumables.

Like if I rolled a celestial armor for example on the list of magic items slot, they would probably find it in possession of a retired Paladin adventurer and bargains to get said items.

Or maybe they come to a house sale, where an adventurer died recently and is family is selling all of his loot.

Usually I try to make it colorful.

Replace the big 5 bonuses with inherent bonuses at level up.

Reduce the price of magic items by 90%

Remove all big 5 bonus items from the game. (Flaming sword is OK, no +3 flaming)

Decrease treasure by 90%

Increase service-based goods by 10x. (Meals/ inns/ masterwork items)

Mundane goods keep book price.

Increase starting level to level 4. (All adults in the campaign setting should be at least level 4, 3 is teenager, 2 adolescent, 1 child)

Beginning characters have 1000gp.

Watch your issue with magic item shops vanish.

Watch your in-game economy begin to make sense.

I've come up with quite a few methods over the years for this, though I haven't tested many of them. My favorite one that spans multiple campaigns:

Low-level magic items such as potions and the like can be found in most shops. For higher-end items, however, there exists a grey-to-black market network run by a mysterious merchant guild that caters exclusively to adventurers and other figures of more direct (as opposed to merely political) power. Access to increasingly higher-end goods requires commensurate proof of your exploits in the form of fame, records of the ruins you've delved or ancient dead gods you've seen, or perhaps undertaking a quest for the network to prove your capabilities. It's unclear what the ultimate purpose of this guild is, though their indifference to the motives of those who purchase their wares suggests that they might simply be anarchists.

(Hey, maybe we should have a "101 Flavors of Magic Mart" thread. )

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It depends on how important the location is to the players. If the PC group is in the area for a while, I will flesh out the magic store personalities and specialties, what kind of magic tem creation feats do the store employees have?

I also tend to have low level, consumable magic items readily available since those would be in greatest demand in theory. I try to have enough that a PC group would find I useful, yet never have everything asked for available; only some of the items requested would be available, with helpful hints as to comparable items or where a similar item might be found.

If it is just a one stop shop that the PC group is visiting while passing through, it usually depends on community size and percent chance of having any requested item (major cities - 75% minor, 50% medium, 25% chance of having a requested major item). I figure many shop owners would divine if a high ticket item would be needed on a specific day, and the unavailability means someone bought it first.

Dotting for future reference.

Generally a PC must commission a magic item from a master craftsman. I have a variant magic item creation feat chain that goes: one shot personal (like a scroll); one shot (like a potion); charged; permanent and another feat chain that has a 5 step power chain that goes from low to major artefact.

The feat chains discourage crafter PCs and also mean that low power, one shot items can be commissioned fairly readily But more significant items require higher level NPCs to make the items. Engaging with these NPCs requires influence and can be the subject of one or more game sessions. Getting a charged wand should be doable with some effort but a powerful sword is going to require gold, influence and power to be in a position to commission the Leonardo Da Vinci of swordsmiths, who is also entertaining requests from other powerful nobles.

Wow! That's a lot of diverse suggestions.

In this particular case, I don't plan to reduce availability of magic items - I want it to be a standard campaign, and the "big six" are going to be present as normal. It's the "how" that I'm interested in. Should I require skill checks to see what sort of items they can find? Should it be an in-character experience? I'm comparing different ways to make magic items a part of the experience rather than completely divorced from it.

I decide what's the most likely items needed by the group, and toss in a couple of relaively non consequential ones for flavor. When they find a shop, what I've determined is what's on the list to purchase.

I'm going to copy/paste/paraphrase some thoughts I've had on this subject from other threads.

The primary reason I don't allow Magic Mart in my games is that is boils down to Meta-gaming. How would the players even know about these magic items existence? The CRB list of magic items is not the Sears Mail-order Catalogue of Adventurer Goodies. I strongly dislike the "ye old magic shop" mentality and I flat out don't allow it in my games. It leads to focusing on getting specific items instead of on RPing.

To me this is an adventure game, not a "I get the exact items to fit my build and my idea of a cool character" game. It goes counter to every fiber of my GMing being to allow this nonsense.

Less magic items/harder to obtain magic items = each item feels more special. Its a simple formula.

I hate them. I hate when players say 'I go buy/shopping for/want x' and immediately start marking the GP off their sheet. I hate that magic items are needed by the system.

For Pathfinder I would institute mage's guilds in the larger cities and run it as though they regulate the sale of non-trivial magic items going so far that they sack little town with their local government authority if reports that they're trying to be sold there.

If this guy had a newsletter, I'd subscribe to it. This is very similar to how we handle it.

I'm going to copy/paste/paraphrase some thoughts I've had on this subject from other threads.

The primary reason I don't allow Magic Mart in my games is that is boils down to Meta-gaming. How would the players even know about these magic items existence? The CRB list of magic items is not the Sears Mail-order Catalogue of Adventurer Goodies. I strongly dislike the "ye old magic shop" mentality and I flat out don't allow it in my games. It leads to focusing on getting specific items instead of on RPing.

To me this is an adventure game, not a "I get the exact items to fit my build and my idea of a cool character" game. It goes counter to every fiber of my GMing being to allow this nonsense.

Less magic items/harder to obtain magic items = each item feels more special. Its a simple formula.

I can get that. What's your take on crafting?

I'm going to copy/paste/paraphrase some thoughts I've had on this subject from other threads.

The primary reason I don't allow Magic Mart in my games is that is boils down to Meta-gaming. How would the players even know about these magic items existence? The CRB list of magic items is not the Sears Mail-order Catalogue of Adventurer Goodies. I strongly dislike the "ye old magic shop" mentality and I flat out don't allow it in my games. It leads to focusing on getting specific items instead of on RPing.

To me this is an adventure game, not a "I get the exact items to fit my build and my idea of a cool character" game. It goes counter to every fiber of my GMing being to allow this nonsense.

Less magic items/harder to obtain magic items = each item feels more special. Its a simple formula.

It's a simple formula until you have to completely rebalance your game. Especially for the martials with their greater dependance on standard upgrades. It isn't a far hop from "Awesome" to "It's about f%*!ing time" when a player finds a +2 "Please be a weapon I spec'd in". And the space in between is filled with a lot of things that fly and shoot lasers.

The following is something I came up with for my RotRL-campaign. Obviously, these guidelines are designed for a high-level party.

Format:
Item Availability: General availability of rare items (base price >20.000gp)
Focus: Item categories available/ item creation feats available
Accelerated Crafting: Maximum amount of work achieved per day for contract work
Special: special conditions or services offered

1. Magnimar (Golemworks)
Item Availability: 25%
Focus: Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Craft Wondrous Items, Craft Constructs
Accelerated Crafting: 13.000gp/day
Special: Toth Breacher has a network of business contacts in different cities across the Inner Sea. For a fee of 2.000 gp, he will contact his partners in Absalom, Egorian, Katapesh and Quantium via sending, checking for rare items within 24 hours. If available (70% chance), he organizes the item's purchase and transfer via greater teleport within another 24 hours for a fee of 3.000 gp.

2. Janderhoff (Thunderforge)
Item Availability: 15%
Focus: Craft Magic Arms & Armor
Accelerated Crafting: 13.000gp/day
Special: Forgemistress Kaptra Dorethain (female dwarf cleric of Torag) cannot afford unexpected disruptions to her working schedule. Still, she may be willing to help out a group of adventurers in a matter of urgency, provided their cause is just. Therefore, accelerated crafting requires a DC 25 Diplomacy check.

3. Riddleport (Cyphermages)
Item Availability: 20%
Focus: Inscribe Magical Tattoo
Accelerated Crafting: 6.000gp/day
Special: Magical tattoos follow the rules for magic item creation as though they were wondrous items. Magical tattoos are treated as slotless magical items for pricing purposes (200%). Magical tattoos must be placed on a part of the body normally able to hold a magic item slot, but they do not count against or interfere with magic items worn on those slots. A single slot can only hold one magical tattoo. Tattoos may be inscribed on the following slots: belt, body, chest, feet, hands, head, neck, shoulder, ring (up to two), or wrist. They cannot be inscribed on armor, eye, headband, or shield slots.

4. Korvosa (Acadamae)
Item Availability: 25%
Focus: Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring
Accelerated Crafting: 16.000gp/day
Special: The Acadamae’s instructors jealously guard the secrets of creating items that can retain power, and seldom reveal how to craft items beyond scrolls, wands, and potions. Although they gladly accept—or demand—the assistance of skilled students in creating more powerful items, the rods, staves, and wondrous items the school’s most talented crafters create are hoarded for their own use, sold to other senior staff, or sold at a significant markup to nobles across the city (120% base price).

The feat chains discourage crafter PCs and also mean that low power, one shot items can be commissioned fairly readily But more significant items require higher level NPCs to make the items. Engaging with these NPCs requires influence and can be the subject of one or more game sessions. Getting a charged wand should be doable with some effort but a powerful sword is going to require gold, influence and power to be in a position to commission the Leonardo Da Vinci of swordsmiths, who is also entertaining requests from other powerful nobles.

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The Goth Vebe Surf Curse Legacy: Pioneers of a New Music Movement